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Thread: Imperialism? Good or Bad?

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    Actual or Ex Legionnaire Main Forum Poster mm66's Avatar
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    Imperialism? Good or Bad?

    Imperialism is bad, cutthroat, exploitative, wrong, yada yada yada.

    We have all heard this countless times.


    But I dunno if it is that easy. For example, look at most formor European colonies in Africa. Better off than before? Hardly.


    Who controls the resources in those areas? Western powers. Those nations are still exploited and savaged, now with just a little bribe money to king asshat or general jagoff. The natural rewards of those countries still belong to the industrialized nations, just now behind a cover of independance.

    Being an imperial colony, for the most part, ment that the peace was roughly kept, infrastructure was built and maintained, and education and employment were leaps and bounds better (though still not very good) compaired to today. Yes the European powers exploited the hell out of its colonies, but I have to ask; Is it really any different today?


    Would a place like Congo or Sudan be better off as a European colony? In my opinion; you bet ya

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    Hyper Active Member Major Forum Poster Pagoda_Warrior's Avatar
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    Re: Imperialism? Good or Bad?

    The Sudan is an unofficial Chinese colony.... Has been for some time. ;-)

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    Hyper Active Member Major Forum Poster Mise's Avatar
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    Re: Imperialism? Good or Bad?

    Just like America, they didn't really like it.
    Auld soldier, auld shite. Young soldier, gab shite.

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    Re: Imperialism? Good or Bad?

    That is a good question, in fact many "experts" have been trying to answer it for years. These so called experts failed to see the whole picture. Economically, yes it makes sense that a stronger economy and more experienced government take over a less developed country and make it a colony. they will make money more effectively and will distribute the earnings fairly. Right?

    But, In theory Capitalism, which in my opinion is a modern term for imperialism, and capitalist economies will do what is best for the capitalists, big corporations, the more money they make the stronger they get and thus the stronger the economy of the country. Now if big corporations do not care about citizens and their needs (unless there is a profit, of course) what makes you think they will care for the citizens of some colony on the other side of the world. It is here where Economical Colonialism (capitalism) fails. Let a Developed country take over a less developed country and in a few years you will just have a big country sucking dry a smaller country, without reinvesting in their education, health, infrastructure. This of course as the result of the companies and their efforts to make money for the share holders.
    Globalization gave developed countries a way out of this stigmata of "Imperialist Pigs" now they still exploit resources in other countries, without having to deal with vasts territories, which are hard to keep control of. there is a catch, when a country has been a colony for so long, there is a big chance that they have not the people nor the infrastructure to manage a country, and I say manage because a country is just a corporation, if you don't have qualified personnel and the appropriate strategy the company is going to fail.
    The stronger country will go and get what they want and pay the country a fee, which is fair in most cases. But then what? all we have is a bunch of Monkeys with loads of cash. what do you think is going to happen? well, as we have seen all hell will break lose, because there is not a structured system to control the country. now, is it their fault? maybe...some people say is the empires fault ...but look at countries like Brazil, or Chile...how long did it take for them to build their countries after being colonies...100 years?
    So....my humble opinion, these empires took so much for so long from these countries that it should be their responsibility to help them get fitted to play the economical game that the world is playing...help them educate their people, build a health care system, o yeah and a government systems, that can be effective. In fact they should have done that before they cut them lose.
    In any case, is very complicated issue, remember, that nobody wants to be told what to do in their own house. right? unless is the wife telling us what to do, of course...but seriously, no country is going to be happy colony unless of course its a fair trade....even then, the term fair trade can get quite sticky.

    Cheers

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    Actual or Ex Legionnaire Main Forum Poster mm66's Avatar
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    Re: Imperialism? Good or Bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by AggieEng View Post
    That is a good question, in fact many "experts" have been trying to answer it for years. These so called experts failed to see the whole picture. Economically, yes it makes sense that a stronger economy and more experienced government take over a less developed country and make it a colony. they will make money more effectively and will distribute the earnings fairly. Right?

    But, In theory Capitalism, which in my opinion is a modern term for imperialism, and capitalist economies will do what is best for the capitalists, big corporations, the more money they make the stronger they get and thus the stronger the economy of the country. Now if big corporations do not care about citizens and their needs (unless there is a profit, of course) what makes you think they will care for the citizens of some colony on the other side of the world. It is here where Economical Colonialism (capitalism) fails. Let a Developed country take over a less developed country and in a few years you will just have a big country sucking dry a smaller country, without reinvesting in their education, health, infrastructure. This of course as the result of the companies and their efforts to make money for the share holders.
    Globalization gave developed countries a way out of this stigmata of "Imperialist Pigs" now they still exploit resources in other countries, without having to deal with vasts territories, which are hard to keep control of. there is a catch, when a country has been a colony for so long, there is a big chance that they have not the people nor the infrastructure to manage a country, and I say manage because a country is just a corporation, if you don't have qualified personnel and the appropriate strategy the company is going to fail.
    The stronger country will go and get what they want and pay the country a fee, which is fair in most cases. But then what? all we have is a bunch of Monkeys with loads of cash. what do you think is going to happen? well, as we have seen all hell will break lose, because there is not a structured system to control the country. now, is it their fault? maybe...some people say is the empires fault ...but look at countries like Brazil, or Chile...how long did it take for them to build their countries after being colonies...100 years?
    So....my humble opinion, these empires took so much for so long from these countries that it should be their responsibility to help them get fitted to play the economical game that the world is playing...help them educate their people, build a health care system, o yeah and a government systems, that can be effective. In fact they should have done that before they cut them lose.
    In any case, is very complicated issue, remember, that nobody wants to be told what to do in their own house. right? unless is the wife telling us what to do, of course...but seriously, no country is going to be happy colony unless of course its a fair trade....even then, the term fair trade can get quite sticky.

    Cheers
    Good response,

    When the Germans, French, and English had colonies they did build roads, schools, and health care. Not in equal share as their home countries, certainly not, but still they built something.

    Now everyone is getting it for free, sure every once in awhile you will hear of a school being built, or a new road funded with European or Far east money (China and Japan are "Industrialized" powers, and India is coming up also). The difference is there is no "responsibility" now that Imperialism has ended.

    In places where many classes of people hate each other maybe a strong guiding hand is needed?

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    Re: Imperialism? Good or Bad?

    Certainly, a guiding hand can be misunderstood as an oppression hand, one thing I can tell you for sure, guiding a country to democracy can be impossible. unless force is used, even then, it can be a long and difficult process. A story that I tell my American friends was told to me by my dad, in a middle eastern country, a Muslim man and a Philippine nurse were caught having sex, according to the Muslim Code this was a big offense, they brought them both to the court house, they told them they have been accused of fornicating, they asked the nurse if she was a Muslim, she said no, they told her,, since she was not a Muslim she couldn't be tried by the Muslim code, and her punishment was to be banned from the country and never been allowed to come back. then, they asked the guy, are you a Muslim? he said yes, they told him his punishment was death. two days later he was hung. Sounds like a story from a century ago..Right?...try 1988. these are people that have a completely different set of mind. How do you change their ways, when they rather die than change.

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    Active Member YankeeDooDoo9's Avatar
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    Re: Imperialism? Good or Bad?

    You know the whole pretext they invented for being in those african countries was because of the White Man's Burden. Sorry just had to add that. Yeah I do believe that certain countries need a paternal guiding hand, not necessarily imperialism again, but something. Look at Zimbabwe and the basket case it has become. Why today on the BBC, it was reported that more Zanu -PF party supporters aka Mugabe's goons, have just invaded more white owned farms. Ok it's economy is in a free for all and it's dollar isn't even worth it to be used to wipe your own ass. So more black Zimbabweans, who have no idea how to cultivate crops are going to run the farms that white Zimbabweans were running effeciently up to several years ago. What they should have done, like neighboring Zambia and Mozambique did, was to slowly buy up white owned farms and give them to the native population who either new how to farm, or the government educated them on it. Granted it has not been a complete success, but it's something. Well the one good thing that has happened for Zimbabwe besides Morgan Tsvangirai getting into the Prime Ministership, is that Mugabe is now 85, how many more years does he have? Or will he go like Stalin and die of "natural causes" or more like a very well concealed poisoning?


    AggieEng: And our former President Bushie, thought he could bring democracy to the world. Haaaa!

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    Icon16 Re: Imperialism? Good or Bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mise View Post
    Just like America, they didn't really like it.
    Instead they opted for Mexican Imperialism in the southern States and Irish in The Northern states of the USA.

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    Hyper Active Member Major Forum Poster Mise's Avatar
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    Re: Imperialism? Good or Bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pagoda_Warrior View Post
    Instead they opted for Mexican Imperialism in the southern States and Irish in The Northern states of the USA.
    Ah! Hold on now. The Italians came too.
    Auld soldier, auld shite. Young soldier, gab shite.

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    Re: Imperialism? Good or Bad?

    I was thinking about this and came up with the question, is there any country in Africa that isn't ****ed in some way? (AIDS, corruption, civil war, terrorism, poverty, ) And I could not think of one.

    It's weird when you visit an african country and realise that the only thing that works is the railroad that was built by the British a 100 years ago..

    Still, they made their choice and now it such a shit sandwich and nobody wants to touch it with a ten foot pole (except maybe the african countries that have oil).

    I was also looking a bit into what aid has been given and how much impact it has had on the standard of living, and the answer became .. not one single bit or very, very little.

    And that little bit is quickly destroyed by the next catastrophy/civil war/epedemic or corrupt official.

    Right now I think the west doesn't want anything to do with Africa any more. They have tried and tried but the same shit different day phenomenon happens.

    I had a friend who was teaching and doing research at an african university. The question was asked to these aspiring entrepenours and future statesmen what they wanted to do when they finished school. The answer was that 90% wanted to work for aid organisations because thats where they would be able to make the most money..

    So basicaly the entire continent is a huge shithole and the people are trapped in an never ending circle of shit which the only escape from is to emigrate.

    Still, immigrate to a country, 100.000 engineer, farmers and doctors from some developed countries. Have them come to their country, live in it with tax relief and establish infrastructure and their own communities. And do not **** with them , that would probably increase the ecomony and standard of living by 100% as it would filter through to all levels of sóciety. (And thats basicaly what happened during the colonial times).

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    Hyper Active Member Major Forum Poster libertypo's Avatar
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    Re: Imperialism? Good or Bad?

    You forget the tribal infighting....
    "I'm anus-peptic, phrasmotic, even compunctious to have caused you such pericombobulation." - Blackadder adressing Dr. Samuel Johnson

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    Active Member YankeeDooDoo9's Avatar
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    Re: Imperialism? Good or Bad?

    Botswana is a good exasmple of a prosperous african country, well only because of DeBeers Diamonds. Although it too is affected by Aids.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botswana#Economy

    Back to bad news, Aids is spreading still, west africa is becomeing a haven for drug smuggling, and more ethnic tensions around the continent.

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    Hyper Active Member Major Forum Poster libertypo's Avatar
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    Re: Imperialism? Good or Bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by YankeeDooDoo9 View Post
    Botswana is a good exasmple of a prosperous african country, well only because of DeBeers Diamonds. Although it too is affected by Aids.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botswana#Economy

    Back to bad news, Aids is spreading still, west africa is becomeing a haven for drug smuggling, and more ethnic tensions around the continent.
    DeBeers doesn't only extract diamonds. Well, not anymore however. They have been involved in the governments social programs and such......
    "I'm anus-peptic, phrasmotic, even compunctious to have caused you such pericombobulation." - Blackadder adressing Dr. Samuel Johnson

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    Exclamation Re: Imperialism? Good or Bad?

    Imperialism = Robbery

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    Actual or Ex Legionnaire Main Forum Poster mm66's Avatar
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    Re: Imperialism? Good or Bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Karu_Türa View Post
    Imperialism = Robbery
    globalization=fraud

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