SAS man refuses to return to Iraq.

**canard** · 13th March 2006, 20:48

Hhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmm:

An SAS soldier has refused to fight in Iraq and has left the Army over the "illegal" tactics of United States troops and the policies of coalition forces.

After three months in Baghdad, Ben Griffin told his commander that he was no longer prepared to fight alongside American forces.

Ben Griffin told commanders that he thought the Iraq war was illegal. He said he had witnessed "dozens of illegal acts" by US troops, claiming they viewed all Iraqis as "untermenschen" - the Nazi term for races regarded as sub-human.

The decision marks the first time an SAS soldier has refused to go into combat and quit the Army on moral grounds. It immediately brought to an end Mr Griffin's exemplary eight-year career, in which he also served with the Parachute Regiment, taking part in operations in Northern Ireland, Macedonia and Afghanistan.

But it will also embarrass the Government and have a potentially profound impact on cases of other soldiers who have refused to fight.

On Wednesday, the pre-trial hearing will begin into the court martial of Flt Lt Malcolm Kendall-Smith, a Royal Air Force doctor who has refused to return to Iraq for a third tour of duty on the grounds that the war is illegal. Mr Griffin's allegations came as the Foreign Office minister Kim Howells, visiting Basra yesterday, admitted that Iraq was now "a mess".

Mr Griffin, 28, who spent two years with the SAS, said the American military's "gung-ho and trigger happy mentality" and tactics had completely undermined any chance of winning the hearts and minds of the Iraqi population. He added that many innocent civilians were arrested in night-time raids and interrogated by American soldiers, imprisoned in the notorious Abu Ghraib prison, or handed over to the Iraqi authorities and "most probably" tortured.

Mr Griffin eventually told SAS commanders at Hereford that he could not take part in a war which he regarded as "illegal".

He added that he now believed that the Prime Minister and the Government had repeatedly "lied" over the war's conduct.

"I did not join the British Army to conduct American foreign policy," he said. He expected to be labelled a coward and to face a court martial and imprisonment after making what "the most difficult decision of my life" last March.

Instead, he was discharged with a testimonial describing him as a "balanced, honest, loyal and determined individual who possesses the strength of character to have the courage of his convictions".

Last night Patrick Mercer, the shadow minister for homeland security, said: "Trooper Griffin is a highly experienced soldier. This makes his decision particularly disturbing and his views and opinions must be listened to by the Government."

The MoD declined to comment.
I would be interested to hear your opinions on this article.
BTW the journo interviewing said Ben Griffin did not request or receive any payment for this article.

**canard** · 13th March 2006, 21:11

Before anyone says it, no, I don't believe everything I read in the bloody papers, just thought it would make an interesting talking point, with the mix of nationalities and experience on the board.
It is only his perspective, he only saw through his eyes... but that does not stop it being without precedent.

**flash010** · 13th March 2006, 22:51

if this is a true account then i would say good on him he is no coward he told them what he beleves to be true. you remember the old natzi excuse (i was only following orders) the sas only take the best ,,,,,,and andy mc nab,

so if the guys a gen grunt he could not desert so he quit i have never thought of an enemy as sub human i have of the ppl who carry out sub human act,s (bosni) so he has told them the way things are happening. i have no prob,s with him he,s a solider with hounner

**Mise** · 13th March 2006, 23:09

I hope, for his creditability, that he will never turn up in Iraq in the private capacity.

**flash010** · 13th March 2006, 23:17

yea that would kinda kick the ass out of my argument for the defence haha

**st george** · 13th March 2006, 23:19

Thats the sort of man i would fight along side any day and all the best to him full stop......

**flash010** · 13th March 2006, 23:25

yea if you dont have morals your just as bad as those you fight

**RaiderDingo** · 14th March 2006, 09:43

I'm dissapointed in this youg man, normaly when you're a member of such an elite corp you really don't have the option to criticize your govt policies. Surely he's not the first SOMCOM operator to have problems with the current situation. What would happen if they all thought and did what he did. Black Ops would no longer be. ALL I CAN SAY IS WHAT A WASTE and they should have screened this guy before letting him in with his free sprit. May be he should set up accross Big BEN with a little sign with all the rest of the protesters.

**Chas** · 14th March 2006, 09:55

It is unfortunate that this episode has reached the light of day. He should have been quietly discharged. Morality and war do not make happy bedfellows. Having said that, side comments about Big Ben and protesters serve little purpose. In a democracy you have a right to lawful protest. Likewise under common law there is a right to 'habeas corpus' which some democratic countries with a common origin choose to ignore...

**Rapace** · 14th March 2006, 11:19

This is a disturbing testimony. A little like when Gen Paris de Bollardière, a WW2 and Indochina hero having served in the Free French SAS (coincidence ?), publicly resigned during the Algeria war, because of what the French army was doing there (to put it candidly, torturing prisoners). Other officers in Algeria faced the same dilemma. I wouldn't like to be one day in this situation.
I think war was illegal from the start, but I have respect for the Brits attitude over there : trying to get an in-depth understanding of the situation, win hearts and minds (well... those which can be won), differentiate between ordinary people and terrorists, etc.
Otherwise, saying that Iraq is a "mess" is an understatement. It's a question of weeks before it falls into civil war. And then, the troops there will be swimming in a huge bowl a genuine shit.

**flash010** · 14th March 2006, 12:23

i think as chas said it should not have come out but i still admier his balls. i would fight on and not question my officers less i was told to do somthing not right

**Nidas** · 14th March 2006, 12:24

Originally Posted by Chas

He should have been quietly discharged. Morality and war do not make happy bedfellows

My point too. As a soldier you're a tool. In such regiment as SAS, with their history of ops, there's no space to start question orders and so on. What is right and what is wrong? Some situations might be spot on when it comes down to that, but i believe you have to leave all the moral thinking to your commanders.

On the other hand, have I been in the same situation? Nope, so who am I to say anything about it...
So now it's time for me to shut the **** up

**Rapace** · 14th March 2006, 13:53

Originally Posted by Chas

It is unfortunate that this episode has reached the light of day. He should have been quietly discharged.

I agree on this.

Originally Posted by Nidas

What is right and what is wrong? Some situations might be spot on when it comes down to that, but i believe you have to leave all the moral thinking to your commanders.

I strongly disagree with that. You cannot just say nowadays "I was ordered to do such and such things." As a soldier, it's your duty (and by the way, your interest), whatever your level, to refuse doing something morally reprehensible like torturing (I mean real torture, not one slaps or two), killing civilians not involved in the combats, summary execution of unarmed prisoners, etc.
Not easy doing, I admit, especially in the heat of action, but if the shit hits the fan (I mean if such things go public), saying "I obeyed orders" will not be deemed a valid excuse in front of a court martial or a civilian tribunal. Let alone the nasty dreams, you'll have to live with for the rest of your life.
This kind of dilemma was exactly the theme a good war film discussed in another thread, Platoon, if I remember well (long time I saw it).

**Martin Scott** · 14th March 2006, 15:01

Originally Posted by Chas

It is unfortunate that this episode has reached the light of day. He should have been quietly discharged. Morality and war do not make happy bedfellows. Having said that, side comments about Big Ben and protesters serve little purpose. In a democracy you have a right to lawful protest. Likewise under common law there is a right to 'habeas corpus' which some democratic countries with a common origin choose to ignore...

I'm with Chas on this one. I also like to know what happened to the Chiense Parliament, where every trooper gets his say. But as Flash so rightly stated if he does turn up in the private sector his argument doesn't hold any water at all.

**Nidas** · 14th March 2006, 15:36

Moral is a strange thing, in war that is. During my service in Sweden we had an interesting discussion about moral and ethics. The whole story is just fiction, only to make us reflect on moral in war.

It's about an sniper in a war zone. Well, this sniper was in his op waiting for the target to show up. The target was an informer (sorry, don't know what word to use) for the enemy. Sending info about troop movements and a lot of vital information who had caused the snipers own army great losses. When he gets the target in his sight he realise that it is a boy at the age of about 8yrs who is the massenger. What would you have done, and why?

I promise you, we had one hell of a discussion! Some 30 totaly different persons in it.