Private salon Ch. Stoeng / Hannibal

[hannibal]

Naaa!! That is a little simplistic way of looking at the problem.

It depends from which perspective are you looking it.

It is obvious that I cannot speak completely freely on the net about these issues.

Well this says a lot about Iran, doesn't it?

On the other hand, Iran has been a nation for several thousand years. This is not the case of many other nations I know about.

I don't know what you meant to say with this.

There is a highly developed industry with a very good know-how and industrial capabilities. This is obviously NOT the case of any of the neighbouring countries.

Of course not. Iran has more than 50% of the population under 50, it controls two vital oil areas: Persian Gulf and Caspian Sea and it has access to the Hormuz Strait through which basically all oil from Kuwait, Arabian Emirates, Qatar and Saudi Arabia is coming to the world market. Once Europe and the rest of the world will switch to other natural energy resources (I hear Sweden is already making some plans) than they will not have such large profits from oil and will become less important for world economy. None of the countries in the Persian Gulf, not even Iran has invested much in other areas of industry or science. Unlike Norway.

That Iran is a major player in the region, both on the political and industrial plan is a fact.

Yes, but again that's due to oil and strategical position in the Persian Gulf. Iran has resources, but their industry is weakly developed, except for petro-chemical of course.

[Stoeng]

Of course not. Iran has more than 50% of the population under 50, it controls two vital oil areas: Persian Gulf and Caspian Sea and it has access to the Hormuz Strait through which basically all oil from Kuwait, Arabian Emirates, Qatar and Saudi Arabia is coming to the world market. Once Europe and the rest of the world will switch to other natural energy resources (I hear Sweden is already making some plans) than they will not have such large profits from oil and will become less important for world economy. None of the countries in the Persian Gulf, not even Iran has invested much in other areas of industry or science. Unlike Norway.
Yes, but again that's due to oil and strategical position in the Persian Gulf. Iran has resources, but their industry is weakly developed, except for petro-chemical of course.

The industry is weakly developed !? Maybe if we compare it to the US or European nations, but compared to its neighboring countries, except Turkey, it is the main player. What other country in this area is doing something else than pumping oil out of the ground or killing each other?
Every country in the world has more than 50% of its population under 50 (have you been drinking) maybe you where meaning 50% under 25. It is probably the case but it is irrelevant in the fact of comparing the industrial capabilities towards the neighboring countries.

Obviously I do not think that Iran should have a nuclear weapon, but on this issue they will have to find a diplomatic solution. Unfortunately, there is a common feeling in the Iranian population that if Iraq would have had nuclear capabilities, they would never have been attacked.

It is a secret for nobody that North Korea has weapons of mass destruction. This doesn’t even have to be checked by the UN, but for some strange reason, nobody has sent their army there to arrest the president and to find and destroy these weapons.

Somehow they are still searching in Iraq and now starting to brag about the fact that Iran could have them in a few years. It is maybe true, but what is sure is that they are in North Korea RIGHT NOW!!!
Maybe it is not enough oil there

Saviors of the world, the weapons of mass destruction are there, go and get them

[hannibal]

The industry is weakly developed !!! ? Maybe if we compare it to the US or European nations, but compared to its neighboring countries, except Turkey, it is the main player.

Yes, the Iranian industry is weakly developedand mostly controlled by the state. That's a common knowledge. It has inefficient state sector and over relied on the oil sector. Private sector contain small-scale enterprises like farming, workshops and services. They amassed their current $30 billion in foreign exchange reserves due to high oil prices. Something also tells what most of this money will go for.

What other country in this area is doing something else than pumping oil out of the ground or killing each other?

Oman. It is a middle-income economy, which is privatizing its economy to attract foreign investment. Investing in information technology and business management. No to mention that tourism is also becoming one of the most important industries in Oman. GDP - per capita for Oman is about 14,000$. Iran has half less. What does Iran invest their money in? For sponsoring Hezbollah in Lebanon? For sponsoring Makhdi el-Sadr's private army in Iraq? I always wondered from where large amount of money to keep his army so well equipped, informed and paid. Certainly not from Iraqi oil.

Every country in the world has more than 50% of its population under 50 (have you been drinking) maybe you where meaning 50% under 25. It is probably the case but it is irrelevant in the fact of comparing the industrial capabilities towards the neighboring countries.

Sorry that was a typo. Obviously I meant under 25. No one denies that Iran doesn't have industrial capabilities, but unfortunately I don't see any investment in that sector. Instead battling with high unemployment the main concern of them seems to be to destabilize Middle East even more as it is, support all kind of terrorist organizations from the Palestinian National Liberation Front to National Liberation Front of Palestine which seek to destroy Israel, a country they don't even have a common border?!

Obviously I do not think that Iran should have a nuclear weapon, but on this issue they will have to find a diplomatic solution.

I think it is hard to negotiate with someone a.) who denies the existence of another nation and its values, b.) has extremely radical positions and c.) support various organizations which seek to destroy you!

Unfortunately, there is a common feeling in the Iranian population that if Iraq would have had nuclear capabilities, they would never have been attacked.

If Iraq would have nuclear capabilities and would pose a threat to the world stability than the first strike would be an attack with nuclear weapons, so there would be no Iraq today. After 11 September everything changed and I personally find the attack on Iraq a good strategical decision (a hammer between Syria and Iran - can you imagine better position???), but how later it was handled is another matter. Surely the Americans would not content with just Afghanistan. Afghanistan was no threat to other countries. But it harboured terrorist training camps by the terrorist organizations, which carried attacks in Europe and USA.

It is a secret for nobody that North Korea has weapons of mass destruction.

Says who? North Koreans? I haven't seen any evidence that North Korea has nuclear weapons. No one can penetrate in North Korea. I personally think that even Chinese and Russians might have difficulties. I think that North Korea doesn't have any nuclear missiles, but they are probably close close. If they would have nuclear weapons you can be sure they will tested it to show it that they have. Right now we only have their word which is pure bluffing.

This doesn’t even have to be checked by the UN, but for some strange reason, nobody has sent their army there to arrest the president and to find and destroy these weapons.

1.) What president 2.) Noth Korean army might be the fourth most powerful army in the world, but it is in terrible shambles, lack of funding and training. The problem in my opinion would not be to attack and defeat North Korea but what China would do. Chinese probably like in 1950s would never allow for "capitalistic and a pro-US country" to come to the Chinese border.

Somehow they are still searching in Iraq and now starting to brag about the fact that Iran could have them in a few years. It is maybe true, but what is sure is that they are in North Korea RIGHT NOW!!!

Are you sure? I haven't seen any evidence. Just a lot of talk by North Koreans. Communist were always master or deceive and lie. I know this very well...

Maybe it is not enough oil there

Fine if all people are so damn against oil and Iraq then I suggest every family has only one car and not two or three like today. Are people in Western countries willing to make this and other sacrifices? Of course not. High prices of oil means industry is burdained and when industry is burdained jobs are lost. Besides that we are not getting Iraqi or any other oil for free you know. We actually pay for it and the local governments get the money. But of course instead of spending it for education, roads, industry and science they are spending it for camel and horses races, arms and personal pleasure. Whose fault is that?

Saviors of the world, the weapons of mass destruction are there, go and get them

Do I smell here a little sarcasm? heheh

[Stoeng]

Yes, the Iranian industry is weakly developedand mostly controlled by the state. That's a common knowledge. It has nefficient state sector and over relied on the oil sector. private sector contain small-scale enterprises like farming, workshops and services. They amassed their current $30 billion in foreign exchange reserves due to high oil prices. Something also tells what most of this money will go for

Maybe over relient on the oil sector, but you are simply over relient on oil

Oman. It is a middle-income economy, which is privatizing its economy to attract foreign investment. Investing in information technology and business management. No to mention that tourism is also becoming one of the most important industries in Oman. GDP - per capita for Oman is about 14,000$. Iran has half less. What does Iran invest their money in? For sponsoring Hezbollah in Lebanon? For sponsoring Makhdi el-Sadr's private army in Iraq? I always wondered from where large amount of money to keep his army so well equipped, informed and paid. Certainly not from Iraqi oil.

Hello !!! Oman is a little place with 3 million people. Iran is 68 million. It is a few more mouths to feed. A lot of assumptions there, now it is US propaganda you are spreading. Makhdi el-Sadr is probably being financed by the CIA. Just in order to keep a potent enemy in order to justify new defence spendings back home. These stories always comes out a few years later

I think it is hard to negotiate with someone a.) who denies the existence of another nation and its values, b.) has extremly radical positions and c.) support various organizations which seek to destroy you!

I must agree with you on this point, but strictly spoken, I could just return the question to you. The Iranian leaders are saying exactely the same about the US, and unfortunately for the moment the intruder is not Iran but the US and its allies.

If Iraq would have nuclear capabilities and would pose a threat to the world stability than the first strike would be an attack with nuclear weapons, so there would be no Iraq today. After 11 September everything changed and I personally find the Attack on Iraq a good strategical decision (a hammer between Syria and Iran - can you imagine better position???), but how later it was handled is another matter. Surely the Americans would not content with just Afghanistan. Afghanistan was no threat to other countries. But it harboured terrorist training camps by the terrorist organizations, which carried attacks in Europe and USA.

Shit !! That is a new one, a hammer between Syria and Iran. I firmly believed it was to find the weapons of mass destruction and to restore democracy in Iraq.

Says who? North Koreans? I haven't seen any evidence that North Korea has nuclear weapons. No one can penetrate in North Korea. I personally think that even Chinese and Russians might have difficulties. I think that North Korea doesn't have any nuclear missiles, but they are probably close close. If they would have nuclear weapons you can be sure they will tested it to show it that they have. Right now we only have their word which is pure bluffing.

Did you see much evidence in Iraq (before and after).

Fine if all people are so damn against oil and Iraq then I suggest every family has only one car and not two or three like today. Are people in Western countries willing to make this amd other sacrifices? Of course not. High prices of oil means industry is burdained and when industry is burdained jobs are lost. besides that we are not getting Iraqi or any other oil for free you know. We actually pay for it and the local governments get the money. But of course instead of spending it for education, roads, industry and science they are spending it for camel and horses races, arms and personal pleasure. Whose fault is that?

Buy Norwegian oil and gas and you will live happily for the rest of your days... and provide me with my second pension.

[hannibal]

Maybe over relient on the oil sector, but you are simply over relient on oil

Explain, please.

Hello !!! Oman is a little place with 3 million. Iran is 68 million. It is a few more mouths to feed.

Hehe... Well you said "name on state" and I did that. You didn't say it has to be bigger than Iran, hehe... Besides that size does not matter. Germany, USA and Japan are bigger than Iran but have much better standard than Iran. Hell, probably even China has got by now more advanced economy than Iran and it has little oil and several times of more population than Iran. This argument which you have just put on surface is typical excuse for Iranians. We are big, so a priori we are poor. Bullocks.

A lot of assumptions there, now it is US propaganda you are spreading.

Still better US than Iranian, I say. In USA you at least have a chance to speak what you think and not like in Iran where a small group of bearded clerics control practically everything, including how you have to dress up.

Makhdi el-Sadr is probably being financed by the CIA. Just in order to keep a potent enemy in order to justify new defence spendings back home.

If that is true that Iran is being financed by USA. Afterall it is not a secret that a-Sadr has close ties with Iran and that his headquarters is swarming with Iranian agents and pro-Iranian confidents.

I must agree with you on this point, but strictly spoken, I could just return the question to you. The Iranian leaders are saying exactely the same about the US, and unfortunately for the moment the intruder is not Iran but the US and its allies

They probably would if they could afford that. But they know that they don't have a chance against USA, UK and Israel. That is why they are trying so desperately to get nuclear weapons. And then they demand from you to believe them that they don't want to attack anyone? Who are they fooling?

Shit !! That is a new one, a hammer between Syria and Iran. I firmly belived it was to find the weapons of mass destruction and to restore democracy in Iraq

Weapons of mass destruction was for suckers and I can't believe you really fell on this. I also seriously doubt that democracy will ever really live in Iraq. The clerics will make sure it won't and secular Iraqi society is not strong enough. Nor does Arab world have any experience with democracy. If so many people are bothered by the current war I fail to understand how come the Second Gulf War 1991 did not bother you? Afterall the main purpose there was also and again oil. And the French (including the Legion) took part in the campaign. I doubt the UN and USA with Allies would trouble that much around Kuwait if it would have been just another typical desert country with no oil and gas. Let's get serious. The three main troublemakers in the Middle east are Saudi Arabia, Iran and Syria. By placing your troops in oil-rich Iraq you can eventually control both of them.

Did you see much evidence in Iraq (before and after)

No. Iraq was a problem which should have been solved in 1991. That was Powell's and Bush Senior's mistake.

Buy Norwegian oil and gas and you will live happily for the rest of your days and provide me with my second pension.

You would love this, wouldn't you? I am afraid Norway doesn't have that much oil to keep up the demands of all EU, China, USA and India. Besides that what if Denmark would demand back their oilfields in the North Sea?

[Stoeng]

Dobbar Dan Stari !!

Still better US than Iranian, I say. In USA you at least have a chance to speak what you think and not like in iran where a small group of bearded clerics control practically everything, including how you have to dress up.

That is true, what can I say?

If that is true that Iran is being financed by USA. Afterall it is not a secret that a-Sadr has close ties with Iran and that his headquarters is swarming with Iranian agents and pro-Iranian confidents.

You would be surprised to see how many US friends there are in Iran, even at a high level.

They probably would if they could afford that. But they know that they don't have a chance against USA, UK and Israel. That is why they are trying so desperately to get nuclear weapons. And then they demand from you to believe them that they don't want to attack anyone? Who are they fooling?

YES YES !! However, for the moment they have attacked nobody. We cannot say that about everybody.

Weapons of mass destruction was for suckers and I can't believe you really fell on this. I also seriously doubt that democracy will ever really live in Iraq. The clerics will make sure it won't and secular Iraqi society is not strong enough. Not does Arab world have any experience with democracy. If so many people are bothered by the current war I fail to understand how come the Second Gulf War 1991 did not bother you? Afterall the main purpose there was also and again oil. And the French (including the Legion) took part in the campaign. I doubt the UN and USA with Allies would trouble that much around Kuwait if it would have been just another typical desert country with no oil and gas. Let's get serious. The three main troublemakers in the Middle east are Saudi Arabia, Iran and Syria. By placing your troops in oil-rich iraq you can eventually control both of them.

Now we are talking So you finally admits that the US and its allies is doing this for the oil, and not for spreading democracy and making a better world.
Shame !!!

You would love this, wouldn't you? I am afraid Norway doesn't have that much oil to keep up the demands of all EU, China, USA and India. Besides that what if Denmark would demand back their oilfields in the North Sea?

Let the Danes have what they want, we will find new fields in the north once we will have booted out the Russians.

[hannibal]

Dobbar Dan Stari !!

That is true, what can I say?

Well for a start you can tell me if this is democracy?

You would be surprised to see how many US friends there are in Iran, even at a high level

I am sure there must be CIA agents, hehe. Anyway even if this is true they have a strange way of showing their friendship.

YES YES !! However, for the moment they have attacked nobody.

And why the hell should they? They have other people (Hesbollah) doing their dirty work (attacking Israel), undermining the eventual efforts for the independent Palestinian State. We are talking about people to whom peace is not in interest because they are lords of war. Same as in Africa.
[QUOTE=Stoeng 171434]Now we are talking So you finally admits that the US and its allies is doing this for the oil, and not for spreading democracy and making a better world.[/QUOTE=Stoeng 171434]Making a better world? Tell me are Norwegian fishermen still brutally killing poor, innocent and lovely sea whales? hehehe... Of course it is about the oil and geo-strategical position. Without oil there can't be an end of economical stagnation.

Shame !!!

You think Norway and Finland are different??? Get serious. One of the main players (multi-national corporations) in Eastern Congo is Finnish NOKIA. Why? Simple. Because in Western Ruanda and Congo they have large deposits of tantalum, a very rare metal that is used for cell phones. Do you use cell phone? Remember that every time you buy a new cell phone (or computer) that by this you willingly or not willingly finance the war in Congo which is raging about various fractions which are fighting all for control of these mineral mines. Same in Sudan. The purges against Darfur is financed by Chinese oil companies, who supply them with money and ammunition and yet no one seems to be disturbed by this as it is by Iraq. So spare me with "shame" and "better war". That's illusion. Either we treat all guilty parties equally or not.

Let the Danes have what they want, we will find new fields in the north once we will have booted out the Russians

Hehehe... You raskalls...

[Stoeng]

Well for a start you can tell me if this is democracy?

Well it is better than the Saudis (Bush's friends).

And why the hell should they? They have other people (Hesbollah) doing their dirty work (attacking Israel), undermining the eventual efforts for the independent Palestinian State. We are talking about people to whom peace is not in interest because they are lords of war. Same as in Africa.

Yes, just like the US uses the UK, Poles, Danes etc..

Making a better world? Tell me are Norwegian fishermen still brutally killing poor, innocent and lovely sea whales? hehehe....

YES and that is our natural rights

You think Norway and Finland are different??? Get serious. One of the main players (multi-national corporations) in Eastern Congo is Finnish NOKIA. Why? Simple. Because in western Ruanda and Congo they have have large deposits of tantalum, a very rare metal that is used for cell phones. Do you use cell phone? Remember that every time you buy a new cell phone (or computer) that by this you willingly or not willingly finance the war in Congo which is raging about various fractions which are fighting all for control of these mineral mines. same in Sudan. The purges against Dafur is financed by Chinese oil companies, who supply them with money and ammunition and yet no one seems to be disturbed by this as it is by Iraq. So spare me with "shame" and "better war". That's illusion. Either we treat all guilty parties equally or not.

100% it is a brutal world, we cannot even trust the Finns

[sikter]

Making a better world? Tell me are Norwegian fishermen still brutally killing poor, innocent and lovely sea whales? hehehe....

Best damn "fish" i ever tried.

[joette]

Yes just like the US uses the UK, Poles, Danes etc.
MMMMMMMMMMMMM??????

[hannibal]

Well it is better than the Saudis (Bush's friends)

Well, if I would have to choose between Saudis and Iranians then I would probably choose Switzerland... DSame crap only different package. But I think that this "friendship" with Saudis is artificial and slowly annoying for Americans, that is why they wanted to open Iraq oilfields to the world and thus increase the oil production, reduce the oil price and with smart investment by the Iraqis they might even get democracy. Of course Saudi Arabia, Iran and Russia are against. High oil prices give them big profits.

Yes just like the US uses the UK, Poles, Danes etc..

I see. So when Polish Podhala Brigade came to defend Norway in 1940 it was OK? Although I can't think of a single Polish reason why they would send their troops to defend Norway?!

YES and that is our natural rights

This is not what Greenpeace says.

100% it is a brutal world, we cannot even trust the Finns

If it is into any consolation to out Finnish friends, they can still easily beat you in ice-hockey.

MMMMMMMMMMMMM??????

Charles was listening too much to Jacques Chirac. He also said to smaller nations to keep their mouth shut because he will run the show. Just like in the good old times. Luckily times have changed and even the French public was against this idiocratic Chirac's idea.

[Stoeng]

Well, if I would have to choose between Saudis and Iranians then I would probably choose Switzerland... DSame crap only different package. But I think that this "friendship" with Saudis is artificial and slowly annoying for Americans, that is why they wanted to open Iraq oilfields to the world and thus increase the oil production, reduce the oil price and with smart investment by the Iraqis they might even get demcoracy. Of course Saudi Arabia, Iran and Russia are against. High oil prices give them big profits.

This is something we can agree about but unfortunately, we will have to live with it. Except if we join the Greenpeace (who is not so peaceful) and starts to drive around in VW’s fueled by some strange kitchen oil.

I see. So when Polish Podhala Brigade came to defend Norway in 1940 it was OK? Although I can't think of a single Polish reason why they would send their troops to defend Norway?!

The Poles where ordered there by the British and the French.
Why do you think the expeditionary force was ready so quickly? Because they were already planning to invade Norway (sorry I meant help in maintaining our neutrality and block the iron ore from the Germans) the Germans were just faster.

This is not what Greenpeace says.

Greenpeace is BS from A to Z

If it is into any consolation to out Finnish friends, they can still easily beat you in ice-hockey.

Even the French can beat us in ice-hockey

Charles was listening too much to Jacques Chirac. He also said to smaller nations to keep their mouth shut because he will run the show. Just like in the good old times. Luckily times have changed and even the French public was against this idiocratic Chirac's idea.

Yeahh !! Old Jacques is giving you all shit. It is painful but France has their own nuclear subs and do not need advice from anybody. Especially when it comes to promote democracy in the Middle East.

[hannibal]

This is something we can agree about but unfortunately, we will have to live with it. Except if we join the Greenpeace (who is not so peaceful) and starts to drive around in VW’s fueled by some strange kitchen oil.

You put inside a couple of bottles of wodka and lit a match and get a rocket combustion...

The Poles where ordered there by the British and the French. Why do you think the expeditionary force was ready so quickly?

Actually the expeditionary force was so quickly prepared because it was already prepared before for amphibious landing at Petsamo to help the Finns to stay in the war. British at first only planned to lay a couple of minefields in your territorial water. So Poles were practically France's and UK's second legion? As far as I know General Sikorski gave his approval for the Polish troops to participate. Polish government was asked before any Polish troops were committed. Afterall in 1940 Sikorski's government in Paris had about 90,000 troops on its disposal. A large force for a country which was just run over.

Greenpeace is BS from A to Z

HEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHE.... But we need her...

Even the French can beat us in ice-hockey

Not just them.

Yeahh !! Old Jacques is giving you all shit. It is painfull but france has their own nuclear subs and do not need advice from anybody. Especially when it comes to promote democracy in the Middle East

Let me see if I got this right: you say that the kernel of all is that Israel has nuclear weapons and neighbouring Arab countries not? Right? Because if this is true than this is France's problem as well.

[Rapace]

I haven't seen any evidence that North Korea has nuclear weapons. No one can penetrate in North Korea. I personally think that even Chinese and Russians might have difficulties. I think that North Korea doesn't have any nuclear missiles, but they are probably close

Nobody knows for sure whether North Korea has nuclear weapons or not, but what is sure is that they fired medium range test missiles over the Japan sea a couple of years ago, which all experts reckon they had the capability of carrying nuclear war heads.

[Stoeng]

Actually the expeditionary force was so quickly prepared because it was already prepared before for amphibious landing at Petsamo to help the Finns to stay in the war. British at first only planned to lay a couple of minefields in your territorial water. So Poles were practically France's and UK's second legion? As far as I know General Sikorski gave his approval for the Polish troops to participate. Polish government was asked before any Polish troops were committed. Afterall in 1940 Sikorski's government in Paris had about 90,000 troops on its disposal. A large force for a country which was just run over.

Only to lay a few minefields !!!!! Now you are talking like Bush again. At this early stage of the war the French/British dream was to make a good naval blockade of the Germans and then to strangle them from the North. Actually they where ready for anything that could avoid having the battle in France (a repetition of WW1).

Let me see if I got this right: you say that the kernel of all is that Israel has nuclear weapons and neighbouring Arab countries not? Right? Because if this is true than this is France's problem as well.

Unfortunately yes, the French gave them the bomb in the first place. What I really meant was that France is the only other Western and democratic nation that has a nuclear force with real world wide delivery vectors. Don't talk about the UK, it is Bush that have the right to press the button not the British. So like it or not, the only real possible (not already controlled by the US) partner is France. Unfortunately, Bush have to treat France as partners and not as subordinates. That is why he hates them with passion and is always criticizing in a very narrow minded and short sighted way (maybe to please his electorate). I am not a very big fan of Jacques, but he knows how to manage France’s place in the world and he was in the government when Bush was still ducking and diving to NOT go to the Vietnam war.