self defense

[josh]

Does anybody have a good recomendation for a particular style of self defense? To make a long story short, I took kenpo karate for a few years when I was younger. And I can usually hold my own when I need to. But I've been trying to find something to practice lately. I know there's so many styles out there. What I want is something to stop and disable a person as fast as possible. Reason being. As confident as I once was, last weekme and a buddy of mune were out barhopping. It was late and we were on our way home. We stopped at a 24 hour store, while he was inside I went around back to take a leak. On my way back to the car I found myself with a gun in my chest and and a big black kid asking for my money. Which was in my wallet in the car. (All I carry into bars is my ID and a few bucks.) I had a 20 dollar bill. I gave it up. Not beleiving that that was all I had he proceded to kind of pat me down telling me that if he found anything else I was gonna get shot. I was furious. But I'm not afraid to say I was also afraid. Now, I've been taught how to handle this exact situation but for some reason, I could NOT remember anything or think clearly. I was drunk and scared. Isn't instict and all the repetitive training supposed to take over now? I thought so. I should NOT have given up my 20 bucks. I SHOULD have taken his gun and beat him with it, am I right? Any of you can think I'm a pussy for how I handled this. I am mad at myself. But at least I didn't get mysrlf killed trying to be the tough guy who I obviously am not. I had to get that off my chest. But any reccomendations would be nice. thanks.

[Nakhshon]

Hi,

Nah, you were not a 'meow meow', you did some foolish moves but didn't get shot (over 20 bucks).

'Situational awareness' was what you were lacking here (allowing that boogaloo to sneak up on you like that, this case as you describe it would not have allowed you to do anything even if you had a 50 cal machinegun on you, except get shot in the chest). For obviously, the boog' had spotted you and 'shadowed' you back there (like the boog' waits in back of convenience stores all night for some drunk dumbass to take a leak?).

Now, if you did have a gun (which you wouldn't want to have with you being drunk) and were aware of what was going down (which you may have been more likely to be if you weren't drunk) then you could have probably ended up getting away with shooting the boog' (since he had a gun, after all). The 'unarmed' combat methods would not have helped, and you were fortunate that the 'boog was somewhat coherent according to your story, and not particularly violent (after all, you don't mention getting a nice common 'parting gift' like a big knee in the balls, pistol-whip to back of the neck, teeth knocked/kicked out, for example of one or more of the many prizes cointained in the 'thug grab bag').

So count your blessings; you just paid the first $20 towards your real-life course of common sense...

---Nakhshon

[Slivovitz]

If it's any consolation, most folks aren't willing to risk their lives over a 20 dollar bill. The guy was an idiot for holding the gun directly to your chest. Theoretically, you could've batted it out of the way, and gone from there. Had he been further away, your martial arts would have been next to useless, (this is a matter of reaction time). I, personally, don't know what I would've done. Depends on the gun, the distance, the amount of money... were I with somebody who I love, I probably would have given him the money, becuz I wouldn't want to put them in harm's way... on the other hand, were I in a bad mood... It's one of those situations where the honorable choice is not always obvious (this depends largely upon your "code of honor", the specifics of the situation, and the social/family life of the person involved {kids, sick parents, a wife, etc should all be taken into account}). No one REALLY knows how they will react to such a situation. The point is you're not a coward for giving 20 dollars to a guy with a gun. Most people would've done the same thing. You're not Bruce Lee, and chances are you would've screwed up whatever "the move" was, and gotten shot. From what I can tell, you were out of practice and drunk. Nobody just "reacts" to a pistol to the sternum. You might consider picking up a tactical baton if you're concerned about being mugged again.
Nearly every style of fighting has warrant. The question you should be asking yourself is "is this school credible?". There are thousands of fraudelent "martial arts" schools/chains out there... Karate America for example. No matter what art you choose, make sure your instructor knows what he's doing. If you want to learn an art where application is commonplace, I would suggest taking up either muay thai or boxing. You will definitely be getting in the ring with the a fore mentioned arts, and although form is useful, if you do not practice application you are a useless fighter. I, personally, practice Shaolin Kung Fu. We spar full contact. We wear a helmet and gloves. Punches, kicks, elbows, throws, knees, slaps, etc, are all allowed. The only illegal target zones are the knees, for women the breasts, the groin, and the back. This is the kind of training I would recommend. You need to get in the ring and spar, and the more limbs that are allowed the better. You should also find a school in which to practice grappling (something I've been neglecting for far too long). Many of the schools that teach you to "block a gun" are completely useless. You should not be telling beginners to fight people with handguns... it's extremely dangerous.
Remember, what makes a fighter a fighter is the ability to lose, learn from it, and fight another day. Consider what happened last night as experience. You've been faced with the situation, and now you can reflect on it; think clearly about how you should react if it happens again. I suspect that you will come to the same conclusion that you did last night. Is it really worth the risk? That is largely a personal decision. Nobody is fit to judge anybody but themselves on how they react to such a situation.
Just remember, it takes YEARS of hard work and diligence to become a skilled martial artist. I'm not saying I am one, but it is common knowledge among those of us who attend genuine schools.
Sorry I wrote so much, I'm feeling chatty today.
Cheers,
William

[FallenOne]

Most martial arts dont have that much of a practial use to them. If you have ever been in a real fight you would know that the other guy does not just stand there and use set forms and flashey moves real fighting is dirty. Most real fights end up on the ground rolling around. Check out judo it is all about ground fighting. $20 just give his ass your money. Your life is worth much more than that. Dont throw away your life because you want to be the tough hero type. All it takes is one bullet no matter how tough or skilled you are.

[a1b2c3]

Fully concur with Slivovitz, FallenOne, and Nakhshon above.

Unarmed vs Armed (gun, knife, baton, etc.) is only viable in the movies. In real life, you have to be really really good, and the other guy has to really really suck. And you have to also get really really lucky.

As Sliv says...training attenuates the instinctive "oh crap" response that we all have to a new situation. And situational awareness would be far better training than x numbers of hours of martial arts training. But a gun to your chest for $20 just is not worth it to find out if you're good enough or lucky enough. As Beau said at one time in this forum, "Courage gets men killed".

FWIW, I've trained in martial arts since I was 10 or so in various styles. I mainly use it as a vehicle for fitness and coordination...not just because I want to be a better fighter. I train at a MMA (MT and BJJ) gym now.

Just my $.02. Be careful out there.

Dave

[Forgotten]

Most martial arts dont have that much of a practial use to them. If you have ever been in a real fight you would know that the other guy does not just stand there and use set forms and flashey moves real fighting is dirty. Most real fights end up on the ground rolling around. Check out judo it is all about ground fighting. $20 just give his ass your money. Your life is worth much more than that. Dont throw away your life because you want to be the tough hero type. All it takes is one bullet no matter how tough or skilled you are.

I agree, I'm taking Okinawan Goju Ryu Karate. I would never use it outside of class. It is more of an art than it is a tool. The mental aspect of karate is very rewarding in dealing with pain and overcoming physical road blocks. But that is just abuot it.

[Brazilian]

Being brave is different from being stupid... and being stupid is not that different from being dead... specially in a situation with guns.
You were drunk and unarmed. He was sober, with a gun and he had the surprise factor.
How much does your life cost? More than 20 bucks? Are you still alive? I think you've done the most positive possible thing.

[-cj-]

I(n) M(y) H(umble) O(pinion)
agree with guys, in your case . your life is worth more than 20$.. 2K $... /non-number value/ $. Doesn't most of martial arts teach you to avoid all kind of fights ? Resistance should be the last of choices when there is only one option - kill or be killed.

[josh]

You guys are all right. I've thought about it over and over. But after awhile of reliving the experience, I guess I forgot the shaking knees and shallow breathing not to mention I was drunk and un-coordinated. And I haven't practiced anything in a long time. But I still want to look into something like a close quarters fighting course. Not a martial arts course. As good as they are, they really mostly are only useful in competitions or for strength and coorination building. I could have practiced that little move every day constantly forever and when it comes down to it...I would not have tried anything. I think one idiot I talked to about it "knew how he would've reacted". I'm sure what he meant to say was that he woud have handed over the money too. But his version was pretty entertaining to say the least. BUT...I am still alive and I don't feel as bad about it. 20 bucks won't fix a new hole in my chest right? I won't be taking pit stops behind convenience stores anymore. And I'll try to keep my eyes open too. Usually I try to be aware of my surroundings. Is it normal for me to be going over this thing constantly thinking about what I could have done differantly by the way?
Anyway thatk you guys for everything. talk to you soon.

[Slivovitz]

"Most martial arts dont have that much of a practial use to them."

I disagree with the above remark. Every martial art has a practical use, beyond fitness. Sure, the flashy shit in the movies is bullshit. Any GOOD martial artist will end a real fight in a matter of seconds, with relatively simple moves. Many martial arts schools in this country do not properly train their students for street-fighting... this is often due to the student's fundamental lack of interest/committment to the art, the teacher's lack of ability to perform and/or teach the art, or the teacher's disinterest in teaching the lethal/applicational elements of the art, among other things. I had a friend in elementary school who had a black belt at Karate America (big chain for those who are unaware)... he would often attempt to kick my ass, and I would always end up making him cry. On the other hand, the experienced fighters who I spar with at the school I attend now are extremely good at what they do... good reaction time, good form, good power, speed, etc... Many of these guys are not padres I'd wanna have to fight in a bar. There is no substitute for street-fighting, as far as application goes, but you can get reasonably close to a real fight within the confines of a safe, and nurturing environment. Like I said, APPLICATION IS KEY. You have to fight to get good at fighting... this is why I think women's self-defense courses are dangerous; they infuse poor, and out of shape "fighters" with an unhealthy amount of confidence. Just remember, no ring-fight is like a street-fight. Martial arts can help prepare you for a street-fight, but don't expect the environments to be at all similar... if nothing else the mental, legal, and physiological aspects are different. In a real fight there are social implications, the possibility of injury (more of a possiblity than in a ring-fight), jail-time, public humiliation, whereas in a good martial arts school, you are all brothers, and you are all there to support each other, no matter how hard you kick each others asses, you know that when the fight is over, even if you break a limb, or dislocate a shoulder, you'll still have mutual respect for each other (this removes A LOT of the pressure).
I practice martial arts, and out of all the shit I've learned my favorite hits are still the jab, the cross, the hook, and the knees. Jump kicks, spin-back kicks, and other flashy moves are generally inpractical both in the ring, and on the street, unless you're really damn good. The flashy moves, for the most part, are intended to improve cooridination, form, flexibility, etc... they are not as useful as simple, quick, powerful moves in application.
Now, as for what you should study if you want to fare well in a street-fight... I have heard that what a1b2c3 does (muay thai+bjj) is a good combination. Overall what you need is a reputable school where you will be able to practice application on a regular basis. Muay Thai is good for this, and I belive that BJJ (I believe this is short for Brazilian Jiu Jitsu) is as well. Like I said I study Shaolin Kung Fu... I attend a good school, but there are many bad schools out there, especially since "Kung Fu" has become somewhat of a household name... which is why I'm not suggesting it.

"Is it normal for me to be going over this thing constantly thinking about what I could have done differantly by the way?"

It is perfectly normal, and it is perfectly healthy. It simply means that you're a guy.
Cheers,
William

[FallenOne]

Like I said MOST martial arts do not have much of a practial use to them some do sure. Almost all of the people that I know and have met who studied MA for a long time still cant FIGHT WORTH SHIT. I have seen more than one "Black Belt" get his ass handed to him because he cant handel a guy who fights dirty. But it is also fair to say that I have seen a few lay out an ass kickin or three. Still I say you need to learn how to fight on the ground because that is were most fights end up.

[Slivovitz]

Still I say you need to learn how to fight on the ground because that is were most fights end up.

I agree. In order to become a well-rounded fighter ground-fighting is essential. Jiu Jitsu, Wrestling, and Judo are handy for this purpose.

[Darkwolf]

Actually Josh you did the smart thing.......is keeping $20 worth getting shot?
A clear head and cmmon sense will usually keep you safer than breaking bricks with your testicles! (or whatever you break them with)

[echo]

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[rickyhimalayan]

josh u did what was right..

but this does not mean u can not handle such a situation..

u know u were drunk, out of practice.. and attact was very surprising.. and this was just for 20 bucks.. so what u was did the best any one can do..

About martial art.. I'm trained karate & taekwondo player...to use martial art u need to understand the philosphy of art of fighting.
what happen in most cases people instead of making martial art their strength
they end up making this their limitation..
You martial art is an add on skills on ur natural skills..
lets take an example.. x is learning martial art he is very skilled in all move ..now he stucked in a street fight .there are chances that he will use only techniques that have been tought him.. where he can use a simple stright punch or pick a stone and bang on the head of his opponent he will try some flashy tech.. . so here he is not using his basic surviving skills..

in street fighting there are many factors come very handy.. one every thing is fair in fighting .. it also include run away..
how fast r u..
how fast u can change ur steping if u kept standing just at one place u r out.. but if u realy good in chaning steping position.. try to use very straight simple and powerfull attack on the weakest part of the body.. if there are more than three guys try not to come in the middle keep urself in one side .. kick ones ass come back .. than go for other one..

its all about how u can control ur fear.. see if ur scared of hoiting they r too..

in ur case u were not in position to fight someone.. u did ur best .. but if u were in save u could have busted the ass of this budy..
his gun was touching ur chest this was the biggest oppertunity for u as his gun was in ur range..but yes if some one aiming from distance on you than dnt try to use any trick.. u r defifntely dead here u can negotiete with verbal skills.

practrice any martial art but keep ur fear in control and dont make this any limitation.. as every thing is fair in love & war..

bye & be in practice.