For indefinite war, create American Foreign Legion

[Peter Lyderik]

What do you all think?

For indefinite war, create American Foreign Legion

By Dominic Pritchard
New Voices
January 24, 2005

America faces a long-term war on terror in which conducting offensive actions and providing security for U.S. interests abroad tax manpower and financial resources. Recruiting and voluntary retention are down, a draft is politically out of the question, and such measures as prolonged reservist call-ups and lengthy deployments are morale-sapping stopgaps. U.S. attempts to create local forces in Iraq and Afghanistan have met with mixed results. In addition, the United States faces growing illegal immigration, a soaring deficit and a prison population of more than 2 million.

But if historical examples were scrutinized, a solution could be found: an American Foreign Legion.

First, a brief history lesson. The Roman Empire offered citizenship to foreigners for 20 years' service in its legions. The Americans and British both employed mercenaries in the Revolution. The British still sign on Nepalese Gurkhas for 20-year enlistments. The French Foreign Legion recruited foreigners to garrison and fight in France's colonies.

A U.S. force could be composed of five voluntary groups: foreigners recruited abroad; undocumented aliens recruited within the United States; incarcerated Americans who opt to serve their sentences in the legion; U.S. citizens or documented aliens who enlist; the Army/Marine officers (and, in the beginning, NCOs) on temporary assignment in charge (later, NCOs recruited from the legion's own ranks would assume the NCO roles). Continuing the present policy, documented aliens would still be allowed to join the regular armed forces.

Life in such a legion would not be easy. Enlistees couldn't marry, have an outside bank account, own a vehicle or civilian clothing, or leave base without permission. Technology could solve the major plague of the French legion, namely desertion, with sub-dermal identification/tracking implants. If tighter control is needed, the legionnaires could be forbidden the possession of cash, and would have debit cards only usable at legion facilities. For ex-prisoners, problem cases could be dealt with by threatening a return to the former condition.

In return (if the French model is used), the legion would teach recruits English; offer new identities; grant citizenship at the end of a five-year enlistment; provide a pension payable anywhere in the world at 15 or 20 years; and provide room, board and a job. Pay could be remitted home, as is popular with the Gurkhas, or saved for re-establishment as a civilian. Prisoners would be enlisted for the duration of their sentences, with a chance of having their sentence reduced for good service. The legion would offer a new life, a second chance.

Ironically, this arrangement would help preempt terrorists who promise paradise, as the legion would offer the chance for a better life on Earth. Like the French legion, a U.S. one would quickly develop an appeal and mystique that would aid in recruiting and in the creation of a fearsome reputation.

The legion's structure could be a division or brigade for every geographical command, each with a base that served as a recruit and logistics depot for the region. Local developing economies could allow for cheap base operation. Each division's elements would operate as infantry, whether light or mechanized. The legion would fall under Army command and, like the Marine Corps, would be capable of dispatching self-sufficient battalion, brigade, and division-sized expeditionary forces tailored for given situations. In conjunction with Special Forces, the legion could offer occupational forces for low-intensity conflicts, leaving the majority of the Army free to prepare as a conventional striking force, which the legion could supplement as well.

Legion troops would be cheaper (no dependents, high retention, and squad bay housing) and more politically acceptable for use in unpopular wars, peacekeeping and long deployments than regulars or contractors. The risk of having such an armed force would be mitigated by keeping the legion based overseas, and potential sleeper infiltrators could be screened and weeded out through the selection/training process. Tight controls and indoctrination could ensure order and discipline. The legion would provide some relief on illegal immigration and prison rehabilitation/overcrowding/cost-benefit concerns, and would also solve the manpower gap. They could also be "loaned out" to liberated nations as temporary armed forces.

Let's face it: The current indefinite war requires America to act much like a colonial power in protecting its interests, and an American Foreign Legion just makes sense to help with the job.

Dominic Pritchard, 29, who served a year with the U.S. Army in Iraq, lives in Oviedo, Fla. He is a student of history and military affairs.

[Rapace]

To successfully create a troop of foreigners, sufficiently efficient and motivated to fight and die for their 'employer' requests some sort of alchemy to build a common sense of belonging, a tradition that must be strong enough to 'melt' all the individuals with very diverse backgrounds into one homogeneous organisation. It takes many years, many campaigns fought, a great deal of sacrifice and suffering... Much more, in a word, than just 'shouting out' for volunteers with a promise for money or regular Id papers for the illegal immigrants. Let alone the idea of recruiting convicts...
This might have been possible in the US decades ago, when the 'melting pot' model was still very strong. Now, with the 'communautarism' model prevailing there and all the political correctness around, I don't see that happening.
I reminds me of a comment made by a Legion officer I saw in a documentary : « many countries have tried to set-up their own foreign legion, but very few have succeeded except France. And it's me, a foreigner, who's telling you this » (if I remember well he was Spanish).

[dietrying]

i'm not sure I agree with you. In the US armed forces right now there are a great number of green-card only soldiers. People from as far as the phillipines, the former USSR satelites and Africa. Said Barra, the main enemy of the US in Somalia was, in fact, a US soldier (Marine?)

[Rapace]

In my mind, green card holders are not 'real' foreigners (except may those who won it at the lottery). Most often, they've been living in the US for several years, speak (more or less) English, are accustomed to the US culture and way of life. Very different from a person coming to a country for the first time (which is often the case for Legion candidates), without speaking the language and being incorporated into a military unit just a couple of weeks after their arrival.

[Slivovitz]

I've got an idea! Why don't we just yank our support for Israel, and their racist, genocidal policies, and pull our troops out of Iraq altogether! Then we wouldn't even need to combat "terrorists".
America is in a permanent state of war because it chooses to be. In my humble opinion, a taste of real war is exactly what this country needs... a little more blood and a little less Hollywood. Sanitation is not media-healthy.
Cheers,
William

[voltigeur]

Several other people and myself predicted before the second invasion of Iraq that is was going to be a quagmire. Even if the American troops would pull out right after deposing Sadam, the dance would really begin between the three major factions. It seems to me that is what is going to pass. Terrorism won't stop by the pull out of troops out of the middle east.
On another note, maybe someone can explain to me why most terrorist wear ski masks :D there does not seem too much cold weather and snow there :D

[Nakhshon]

I've got an idea! Why don't we just yank our support for Israel, and their racist, genocidal policies ... Then we wouldn't even need to combat "terrorists". ...
Cheers,
WilliamAh, yes, another tin soldier wannabe has spoken. On the other hand, I take that back, I think I agree with you, Billy 'Budd', it's just a matter of perspective - Israel does seem to exert racist, genocidal policies actually - against her own civilians, by letting them get murdered. But that's enough politics for you, I don't want to give you a pain in your brain. Maybe if you exercised it a bit by reading some actual strategic classics like, "The Prince" by Machiavelli, "The Art of War" by Sun Tzu, "On War" by Clauswitz, then actually become a soldier, serve honourably in several conflicts that mattered (at least to you personally), you'd see for yourself what Israel is actually doing wrong (and America is doing and has done wrong, as did France in Algeria, etc.).

For Voltigeur, regarding the wearing of ski masks, I have an answer for you at least in regards to the local BooBoos (in Israel): they are waiting for their imminent victory over the Jews (and you know, when Hell freezes over it is supposed to get VERY COLD!) :D

[Slivovitz]

What an intelligent and worthwhile reply! Rather than siting actual facts and evidence to defend your sorry-ass country, you instead attacked my character, when in all reality YOU know NOTHING about me.
You are obviously a genuine hero, and since I have never bulldozed an innocent families house, or shot a child in the head for throwing a rock at me, I am obviously in no place to be arguing with you; it might make my little civilian head hurt real bad! After all, I am not one of "God's chosen people", and I am inferior to you in every way imaginable. I bow in reverence to the great Jewish prince.
You don't like that do you? You want a constructive argument, or do you want mudslinging? Cuz I'm damn good at both, but I don't come here to jerkoff and waste my time with this sort of cyber-drama crap, so until you have something constructive to say, don't expect me to waste my time replying to it.
Cheers,
Billy Bud

[Rapace]

After all, I am not one of "God's chosen people", and I am inferior to you in every way imaginable. I bow in reverence to the great Jewish prince.Ahem... No man is inferior to any other. "Les hommes naissent et demeurent libres et égaux en droit" (Déclaration des droits de l'homme et du citoyen, published by the French revolutionnaries in 1789)
The discussion is going into something that doesn't look good and we are far away from the original post regarding a (would be) American Legion.

[Eagle eye]

..The discussion is going into something that doesn't look good and we are far away from the original post regarding a (would be) American Legion..It's called digressing...

[Nakhshon]

Actually it wasn't really I digression, it is an example proof-of-point. The American Foreign Legion idea could work very well (eventually), if it was constructed and indoctrinated properly (using foreigners who actually want to eventually be US citizens, and even prisoners if the NCO's were allowed to work 'the old way').

But, until a more overtly 'totalitarian' (and/or nationalistic) government would be in control of the US (for, say what you will, the so-called conservatives/Republicans aren't exactly doing anything to stem illegal immigration, outsourcing of jobs, etc., either), the mental and moral midgets (who hate their country and unjust warfare involving *gasp* killing, yet are ready to flee it into the arms of... a foreign 'hot' military who with great dedication serve the 'imperialistic/political' aims of that country, which to me there is nothing wrong with at all, but I'm not the 'bleeding heart' over dead enemies, now am I?) would doom any such enterprise to embarrassing failure.


Anyhow, kindly note that I didn't digress into anything, not even name-calling (and "Billy Budd", if you want to know, was the main character in a book of that title by Herman Melville, but I don't want to spoil it by giving away how it ends and why, but it is justifiably considered a "Classic").

---Nakhshon

[dietrying]

In my mind, green card holders are not 'real' foreigners (except may those who won it at the lottery). Most often, they've been living in the US for several years, speak (more or less) English, are accustomed to the US culture and way of life. Very different from a person coming to a country for the first time (which is often the case for Legion candidates), without speaking the language and being incorporated into a military unit just a couple of weeks after their arrival.
Patrick, are you an American? If so, from where? Many communities (esp. in Arizona, where I live) the CITIZENS speak no English, not to mention the green card holders. As for acustoming themselves to the US lifestyle, that, too is not always obvious.
J'crois qu'vous etes francais. Si j'ai raison, j'veux vous dire qu'c'est peut-etre le meme que les Algeriens en Marseille. On parle l'arabic, on mange le <<falafel>> mais on et francais.

[Snak2e]

I've got an idea! Why don't we just yank our support for Israel, and their racist, genocidal policies, and pull our troops out of Iraq altogether! Then we wouldn't even need to combat "terrorists".
America is in a permanent state of war because it chooses to be. In my humble opinion, a taste of real war is exactly what this country needs... a little more blood and a little less Hollywood. Sanitation is not media-healthy.
Cheers,
WilliamYou got to be kidding, the terrorists target them, because there jews, don't you see how that's racist, fight fire with fire, and its quite effiective, the Israelis have killed all their most wanted men.

[BobW]

Bonjour Peter and all,

The author is on the right track but the US already has its own model "foreign legion". Again, his theme is OK; his specific "facts" cannot withstand review.

The US still uses foreign citizens as warriors. The Hmong from Southeast Asia are a recent example. A US "legionaire" not allowed to marry? Pres Bush won reelection via America's "Bible Belt". Restricting marriage in any proposal does not sell too well on Capitol Hill (Congress, Washington, D.C.). "Own a vehicle" ? This too does not sell in the USA.

The current model-since circa 1898-1900 (Phillippines) is to fund local units. Look at Panama, South Korea, Egypt, Israel, Iceland.

"Legion" troops replacing contractors? This too won't sell too well unless repackaged.

Technology can NEVER solve problems. Problems cn only be solved by human efforts. Subdermal chips already have countermeasures.

The author's idea is good but it's been in a modified use since the US became a world power. Any coincidence citizenship and "easy" refugee status is given to those who served US interests overseas (I am aware of the scandals and mistakes eg South Lebanese Army, certain Cuban groups).

Saluations,
BobW

[BobW]

Bonjour William,

You didn't define your terms so its difficult to discuss your post. Bertrand Russell charged the US with racism when the US nuked Japan. He said the US would only do this to a different race; ie not the Occidental Germans-just Orientals.

What racist policy do you specifically charge Israel with?

What genocidal policy? I believe Israel's "Parliament" has Arab members.

Leave Iraq? Are you familiar with US economic policy?

To yank support from Israel - and it might happen in 1 to 2 budget years from now - means that, at the moment, the US will have to find substitute arrangements to replace 17 IDF divisions available to the US in case of an emergency. One additional level of support is aircraft logistics and maintaince. If the US were to take this role over next wek, US taxes would be so high both you and I would not own PCs nor be able to pay electric bills.

If the US does not have access to Arab oil by withdrawing from the Middle East, I'd love to read your proposed order of battle to implement your economic proposals.

Saluations,
BobW

[BobW]

Bonjour Voltigeur1,

Here's my opinion on the ski masks. The US recently adopted British policy uded during the Malaya "emergency". Instead of allowing the insurgents to melt back into the population, the US identifies them and arranges dates for them with 72 virgins.

The above is a change of US military doctrine. It works.

Saluations,
BobW

[BobW]

Bonjour William (Billy Bud),

Regarding shooting "a child in the head for throwing a rock" requires a response.

Besides having extensive combat experience, I also have experience regarding "children" throwing rocks (and bricks dropped on cars also).

I served in a little known-and hushed up- US Army riot control unit after Vietnam. This is when America's cities were burning. For the record: "Operation Garden Plot". It was so serious I even had a sniper in my unit.

Other than degree and specific circumstances, having a rock thrown at your head is not too much different than being shot at with a 57mm recoilless rifle, a RPG7 or RPG2. In practical terms it is the same. A brick dropped from an overpass is lethal both to the targeted car and nearby vehicles getting involved in the collision.

I've had young teenagers try to kill me both overseas and in the US. Israel is the same.

I do not believe you've been in the situation(s) where the very young are used in insurgency operations. If I am incorrect, please elaborate on your experience and thoughts on how to engage young kids serving as lethal threats.

It's the same situation in Ivory Coast.

Saluations,
BobW

[BobW]

Bonjour Patrick, DieTrying and Nakhshon,

The Situation; the current immigration wave into the US is the largest since the early 1900s. In practical terms it is all de facto LEGAL immigration-although the politicans must not say this-. The US birthrate is so low, massive immigration was needed to prop up the private retirement programs and the public one called "social security". The unions and the other cartels stopped large legal immigration from becomming official, =PUBLIC= US policy.

If the immigrant stays out of trouble, citizenship is available. This allows for joining the US military. The same applies for transitional programs ("green card" holder).

The US needs a larger military but expansion can only occur when the funding is available. This is the double blessing of the immigration wave. It reduces America's inflated payrolls.

The outsourcing of jobs is related to this. It is a benefit to the US economy - and, on examination, actually saves US jobs. Here is the key; if the company is not competitive, it has 2 options only;
1. outsource 95% of their jobs and retain 5% in the US (eg senior management, some staff, some liaison positions)
or
2. liquidate under the bankruptcy statutes

Option 1. saves jobs (5% of total)
Option 2. eliminate all jobs (100%)

All the above relates to the US military. Besides a security apparatus, it is a major economic matter (three commas in the numbers "billions of dollars").

The US is still not competitive in the world. At least there are programs trying to correct this. The downstream results can only be told by fools and sages. I am no sage.

Saluations,
BobW

[Eagle eye]

OK, let's now read what the opinion of Peter Lyderik is on this issue after all the individual replies besides his standard "Thank you all for your replies"..... :D

[Rapace]

Patrick, are you an American? If so, from where? Many communities (esp. in Arizona, where I live) the CITIZENS speak no English, not to mention the green card holders. As for acustoming themselves to the US lifestyle, that, too is not always obvious.
J'crois qu'vous etes francais. Si j'ai raison, j'veux vous dire qu'c'est peut-etre le meme que les Algeriens en Marseille. On parle l'arabic, on mange le <<falafel>> mais on et francais.Dietrying. Oui, en effet, je suis français. Thanks for this update. I didn't imagine there were entire communities in the US who do not speak English, especially among people holding a green card (I thought one of the conditions to get one was to have a basic knowledge of the English language). Anyway, your comparison with French people of Arabic descent living in Marseille or elsewhere is not correct : many were born in France or come from former French colonies and I would say 90% of them speak fluent French. They eat ‘falafel’ or ‘couscous’ but so do many ‘aboriginal’ French.

[Constantine]

So Bob you get green cards before or after going to the US?

I mean do the US emabsies abroad receive aplications for green cards, process them and allow the aplicants to leave in the US?

I do not really know the procedure and you seem to know a lot about this.

There isn't an American embassy nearby here.

I've heard that if you receive an invitation from an american citizen, you get a green card and can go to America? Any special options for EU citizens?

Just tell me the basic procedure and then direct me to a site or something.
That would be most helpfull.

P.S About Israel.

I do not think that anyones enjoys the deaths of children, no matter if they are hostile to soldiers or not. But Israel is currently in a war. And in a war you do everything to protect yourself first and worry about ethics later.
If someone told me that in order to protect Greece i would have to wipe out every living moslem in Thrace, i would do it in an instant and have no qualms about it.

[sikter]

So the 15 year old "child" throwing rocks pose such a threat (leathal) to member of the elite army sitting in a lets say armored car that the only way out for him is to snipe the kid. There must be a whole lotta Israeli soldiers dead by the hands of these kids.

What genocidal policy? I believe Israel's "Parliament" has Arab members.A drop of water in the ocean compared to refugees in Vest Bank (???), Gaza and the rest of the world. I belive correct word would be ethnic cleansing. Remember ww2 and Balkans?

[Rapace]

I don't see why you put quotes in the expression Israel's "parliament". Whether one agree or not with Israel policy (I'm not a big "fan" either) one must recognise that Israel is among the very few democratic states (if not the only one) in the region, where the leaders are democratically elected (and do not simply succeed to their father), can be removed from power without having to set up a coup) and won't stay for 30 years + at the head of the state.
This being said, the topic of the thread was not the politics in the Middle-East.

[voltigeur]

So the 15 year old "child" throwing rocks pose such a threat (leathal) to member of the elite army sitting in a lets say armored car that the only way out for him is to snipe the kid. There must be a whole lotta Israeli soldiers dead by the hands of these kids.
A drop of water in the ocean compared to refugees in Vest Bank (???), Gaza and the rest of the world. I belive correct word would be ethnic cleansing. Remember ww2 and Balkans?
What is good for the goose, is good for the gander. there have been enough cases of teenage suicide bombers. It is a vicious circle of "tit for tat". I would venture to say that the terrorist/freedomfighters take it a step further by cutting off the heads of innocent hostages and video tape it.

[Eagle eye]

..They eat ‘falafel’ or ‘couscous’ but so do many ‘aboriginal’ French..Couscous is a delicacy served in the FFL in my time during special regimental or national holidays...

[BobW]

Re: [Only registered and activated users can see links]

Bonjour Constantine,

I cannot answer your questions. I've been away from this complex field for some time now, plus, it is rapidly changing.

I am going to suggest you spend some time surfing the above site. Do note that cis.org is "anti" immigrantion. However, their site is well organized so you can study this. Remember, studying this is no less complex than learning how to call in artillery fire or close air support. It takes a lot of time and effort.

Hope this helps.

Saluations,
BobW

[BobW]

Bonjour Sikter,

Believe it or not, in military operations, a child can indeed be a lethal threat. What you describe is not the actual situation. First, you cannot distinguish a rock from a fragmentation grenade. If children have been already used for military assignments, the opposition forces adjust accordingly. In many of the world's militaries, 15 years old is not considered a child.

I do not know if you've been to Israel so it's difficult to give clear replies to your points. The word "refugee" is being misused. There are bona fide refugees present but the environment is not like the media presentations and the UN with their so-called "refugee camps". The Arab home I visited at can be called a luxury home.

Yes, I am familiar with WWII and the Balkans. I spent a year as a contractor in the former Yugoslavia. Loved it !

(Patrick, I put quotes around "Parliament" because I wanted to highlight the formal name of the organization is different. I forgot how to spell "Knesset" which I just looked up.)

(Sikter, is "Skane" the same place as "Scania" ?)

Saluations,
BobW

[Slivovitz]

"the mental and moral midgets (who hate their country and unjust warfare involving *gasp* killing, yet are ready to flee it into the arms of... a foreign 'hot' military who with great dedication serve the 'imperialistic/political' aims of that country, which to me there is nothing wrong with at all, but I'm not the 'bleeding heart' over dead enemies, now am I?)"

I dunno about you, but I don't like being lied to by my government. There were no, there never were any, and there still aren't and WMD's in Iraq, that was bulls***. The Iraqi's did not want us to invade, that was also bulls***... One of my best friends in TX was an Iraqi, who didn't support Hussein in the slightest, and HE didn't want us to invade. Hussein had no ties, alleged or otherwise, to Al Quaeda, Osama Bin Laden once referred to Hussein as a "Socialist infidel". Osama wanted him out of power. The invasion of Iraq has not reduced terrorism, it has instead created a breeding ground for it. I don't approve of killing if it is not the right thing to do, I wouldn't expect you to share the same belief considering that you are ex-IDF. I do not weep over dead enemies, but the Iraqis and Palestinians ARE NOT my enemies, and to be quite honest, I don't think Israel has any right to exist. Everytime I hear one of your comrades in arms gets killed, decapitated, or shot, I can't help but smile. :D

"You got to be kidding, the terrorists target them, because there jews, don't you see how that's racist, fight fire with fire, and its quite effiective, the Israelis have killed all their most wanted men."

No, the "terrorists" target them becuz they took their land (and continue to do so), kill their families, bulldoze their houses, and will not allow them to re enter what is their's by right. There are numerous other human rights violations being committed on a daily basis in the occupied terrorities of which YOU will never hear about on FOX NEWS. If you killed my brother, bulldozed my house, and shot at me, you can bet your ass, I'd f***ing blow your face off for it. *weak liberal heart bleeds as I say this; drip drip*

"What racist policy do you specifically charge Israel with?"

Zionism is, in and of itself, a racist philosophy (as once ruled by the UN); Israel is a Zionist Theocracy, therefore Israel is racist. Zionists believe the Jews to be "God's chosen people", i.e. Nakhshon is favored by God, YOU are not. Nakhshon should be allowed to live and rule in his "promised land", Palestinians should not. Hmmmm... what does this remind me of. OH YEAH! Aryans are "superior" to the "Jewish animals" and are predestined to rule the world. Racist policies? I'd say that bulldozing an entire families house, due to the criminal actions of a relation, is pretty damn racist, considering that they only do it to Palestinians. Yes, Israeli citizens, who happen to be Arabs, are allowed to vote. Big ******* whoop, considering that only 20% of the population in Israel is Arab, as opposed to 100 years ago when it was closer to 100%... *cough cough* I s'pose they all just decided to pack up their bags and leave, right? Or could those be the same Arabs who are stuck living in Gaza and the West Bank right now, and are not allowed to return to Israel. Were Israel ever to have an Arab majority it would cease to exist, it would infact be renamed Palestine. As for genocide: Sabra and Shatila, need I say more?

"Believe it or not, in military operations, a child can indeed be a lethal threat. What you describe is not the actual situation."

Actually it IS the "actual situation", why don't you read some of the bloody reports man? Half the time they're sitting in heavily armored bunkers picking off unarmed children and ambulance drivers, or should I say "racist terrorist brown scum, here my roar!" Various human rights organizations have published detailed accounts of such incidents.

"I do not know if you've been to Israel so it's difficult to give clear replies to your points. The word "refugee" is being misused. There are bona fide refugees present but the environment is not like the media presentations and the UN with their so-called "refugee camps". The Arab home I visited at can be called a luxury home."

The Arab refugees in refugee camps don't have homes, that's why they're in refugee camps.

"What is good for the goose, is good for the gander. there have been enough cases of teenage suicide bombers. It is a vicious circle of "tit for tat". I would venture to say that the terrorist/freedomfighters take it a step further by cutting off the heads of innocent hostages and video tape it."

The terrorists who commit such crimes are not killing for the stability of the region(s), they are there to promote instability, becuz only in an unstable region can terrorists be bred.

"If the US were to take this role over next wek, US taxes would be so high both you and I would not own PCs nor be able to pay electric bills."

Excuse me, why? Let's not forget that Israel is dependent on us, it is not the other way around, without us they wouldn't exist, THEY ARE OUR BITCHES.

"If the US does not have access to Arab oil by withdrawing from the Middle East, I'd love to read your proposed order of battle to implement your economic proposals."

Have we forgotten about the Saudi's and Iraq? Cuz it'd be real convenient if we had.

"The outsourcing of jobs is related to this. It is a benefit to the US economy - and, on examination, actually saves US jobs."

Competitive? *laughs* It has nothing to do with competition, it has to do with profit, the jobs that we outsource ARE NOT coming back to us. Hundreds of companies leave the US every year, not because they are in financial crisis (if anything they're doing really damn well) but becuz they want, not need, WANT, to make more profit by paying slave labor wages. That's not "competition", that's a workers rights violation.

I think I've covered everything but perhaps I missed something, you people write too much too fast.
Cheers,
William

[sikter]

Bonjour to you too bobW
I dont think we are talking about same thing. "Scenario" where "child" has AK strapped across the chest is not the same as the child with a rocks in its hands. Choise between me or my buddy and person or child with a assult rifle (or dinamite belt) no matter the age is no choise att all. Not being able to make a distinction between a person that is throwing rocks for weeks at the time or an ambulance worker and one with a grenade (now how often do they throw grenades, or is the killing preemptive) is just an ignorant excuse. The way I see it it's like Volitigeur said it... tit for tat. It is stateterrorism simple as that.
You say you worked in Balkans. Would you justifiebly explain killings at the Sniper Alley if the vicitms threw rocks.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]
A refugee is defined as a person outside of his or her country of nationality who is unable or unwilling to return because of persecution or a well-founded fear of persecution on account of race, religion, nationality, membership in a particular social group, or political opinion.
It has nothing to do with your economical status.

As for the state of Israel, its foundation is based on rasist politics and ethnic cleansing. Now the most youth I had pleasure of meeting are openminded and friendly (in my book THE most beautiful women in the world, hell man you couldn't enter Khao San Road in december without getting a hard on) , but government and its politics are ****ed up.

Scania??? Only Scania I know of is a truck :). Skåne is a south south of Sweden

[BobW]

Bonjour William,

I'm only addressing your response to me regarding my initial rhetorical question (and a little more for readability) - otherwise our discussion leaves the military realm too much for the political realm.

I and many others do not give full faith to United Nations rulings. That organization you cite was once led by Kurt Weldheim, a Nazi in WWII Yugoslavia.

Since there are black Zionists in Israel (Diamona area) and Ethopians, it's difficult to call "Zionism" racist. David ben Gurion, Israel's first PM was a Zionist and also a socialist. He had little to do - save for political showmanship- with Judaism or any other religion. He definitely did not believe in "God's chosen people". Much of their current government is secular- ie not religious at all.

Some of the material you present is not factually correct. The Government of Israel also bulldozed Jewish homes in Yamit, among other places.

Your history is complete incorrect. Ottoman rule over the area did not encompass nearly a 100% Arab population. It was more to 40% Arab, 40% Jewish, 20% Christian.

It is correct to write that Arabs are not allowed into Israel. The most sought possession is an Israeli ID card. These Arabs seeking to enter Israel seek Israeli citizenship. The pay is 2-4 times higher, it is safer and the typical middle class Arab hates and fears the PLO/PA.

Yes, please say more. Sabra and Shatila are in Lebannon, a former Christian-Muslim country, formerly known as the eastern Med's riveria. Now, it is dangerous to be identified as a Christian. The Marronites have a worse situation than Egypt's Coptics. Are you familiar with Lebannon? The South Lebanese Army was partly funded (and some other stuff) from Virginia, USA.

I do not need to read reports - although I still do - . I've been there. Was also involved in a terrorist attack. To continue our discussion is only to say one of us is wrong. In fairness, it could be me.

Vice versa, William. The US is dependent on Israel.

US Undersecretary of State Joseph Sisco to Israeli author Shmuel Katz in 1989:

"I want to assure you, Mr Katz, that if we were not getting full value for our money, you would not get a cent from us."

(Competition and profits are related.)

Kol tuv,
BobW

[Rapace]

and to be quite honest, I don't think Israel has any right to exist. Everytime I hear one of your comrades in arms gets killed, decapitated, or shot, I can't help but smile. :D This statement is NOT acceptable. He who smiles at a human being savagely killed, irrespective of his nationality, race or creed, deserves little respect.


Zionism is, in and of itself, a racist philosophy (as once ruled by the UN); Israel is a Zionist Theocracy, therefore Israel is racist. Zionists believe the Jews to be "God's chosen people", i.e. Nakhshon is favored by God, YOU are not. Nakhshon should be allowed to live and rule in his "promised land", Palestinians should not. Hmmmm... what does this remind me of. OH YEAH! Aryans are "superior" to the "Jewish animals" and are predestined to rule the world.This sort of comment are commonly called "antisemitism". Period. It might not be the case in the US (1st amendment hmm ?), but under most of European countries laws, making such comment publicly is liable to prosecution. Period. The thread will be closed and any new post in the same vein will be discarded.

P.S :
a/ We are commemorating today (Jan 27) the 60th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz concentration camp.
b/ I'm not Jewish and even less Zionist.

[boss]

and to be quite honest, I don't think Israel has any right to exist. Everytime I hear one of your comrades in arms gets killed, decapitated, or shot, I can't help but smile.Patrick (as often) did it before me. Slivovitz, were you drunk ? Anyway that's really STUPID... don't use this BBS again for such f*** ideas... first and last warning. Apologize...

Patrick was right to close the thread....