Question about Indochinese in 5 REI

[Peter Lyderik]

In this book

http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/2702504361.08.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

is a senteence which doesn't make any sense.

le 5e REI comptant 28 sous-officiers et 2829 hommes du rang indochinois

Does it mean there were 28 nco's and 2829 other ranks of indochinese origin? And this is supposed to be in the beginning of 1945.

Looking forward hearing from all.

[Bram]

Could be possible that it was a regiment that existed only out of indochinese people (vietnam, laos and cambodja for those that don't know) under the command of Legion NCO's.

In Algeria there were regiments that only had algerian people (this isn't the name, can't remember what the name of those people was) in them, also under the command of Legion or regular NCO's and officers.
Many of those deserted and joined the other side...
I read this in the book of Simon Murray.

I'm not too familiar with these units so if my info isn't completely right forgive me.

Maybe Joe knows more about this.

[voltigeur]

Could be possible that it was a regiment that existed only out of indochinese people (vietnam, laos and cambodja for those that don't know) under the command of Legion NCO's.

In Algeria there were regiments that only had algerian people (this isn't the name, can't remember what the name of those people was) in them, also under the command of Legion or regular NCO's and officers.
Many of those deserted and joined the other side...
I read this in the book of Simon Murray.

I'm not too familiar with these units so if my info isn't completely right forgive me.

Maybe Joe knows more about this.Spahis and Tirailleurs de Afrique, but as far I know they were strictly under command of regular French Army officers. I am almost sure there is a misprint/quote about that many Indo Chinese in one Legion Regiment.

[Rapace]

In this book is a senteence which doesn't make any sense.

le 5e REI comptant 28 sous-officiers et 2829 hommes du rang indochinoisIt doesn't make sense to me either. Are you sure your quoting it correctly ? Or maybe it's the total number of Indochinese who served with 5REI over its whole history. Remember that 5REI was the Legion regiment permanently based in Indochina, even before the war.

[Peter Lyderik]

The whole sentence goes like this:

En revanche, certains corps comme les 9e et 11e RIC alignent un nombre plus ou moins grand de tirailleurs, le 5e REI comptant 28 sous-officiers et 2829 hommes du rang indochinois.

It is about the situation by March, 1945, before the Japanese coup. I am open for all suggestions.

[hannibal]

Hi Peter!

Some time ago you have asked a question about Indochinese component of 5e REI in Indochina during 1940-1945:

En revanche, certains corps comme les 9e et 11e RIC alignent un nombre plus ou moins grand de tirailleurs, le 5e REI comptant 28 sous-officiers et 2829 hommes du rang indochinois.This quote is partially correct. In June 1940, about one third (1/3) of the strength of the 5e REI was made up of Indochinese legionnaires from Cambodia, Cochin-China, Annam and Tonkin. Or to be more precise with numbers the official strength of 5e REI on 22.09.1940 was: 1,526 French Officers and European Legionnaires and 1,067 Indochinese Legionnaires (Tirailleurs), total 3,144 men.

Later during a short Franco-Japanese War in Northern Tonkin in 1940 the regiment was involved in the defence of Lang-Son and suffered heavy casualties with many officers and men being killed or captured. The Japanese divided the Legion POWs into several groups and one of such groups included German and Austrian legionnaires. This group was about 200 men strong. Some men returned later back to their outfit but most of them were sent to Nanking, China.

So taking into considerations a) the losses from Lang-Son battle, b) lost German & Austrian legionnaires and c) legionnaires dead from diseases, wounds and deserters from the 1941-1945 period, one can assume that the Indochinese component of the 5e REI has subsequently risen from 1/3 of the regiment's strength to at least 2/3. Hence that comment in the "Les Linh Tap". It would be in my opinion more correct if the author would write in his book le 5e REI comptant 28 sous-officiers et 2829 hommes du rang indochinois et européene and not just indochinois.

Hope this helps to answer your question.

[Peter Lyderik]

Hannibal,

It helps a lot. What are your source/sources for the numbers from 1940 about 5 REI? And why do you write Indochinese Legionnaires (Tirailleurs)? Were they Legionnaires or Tirailleurs?

Looking forward to hearing from you.

[hannibal]

It helps a lot. What are your source/sources for the numbers from 1940 about 5 REI? And why do you write Indochinese Legionnaires (Tirailleurs)? Were they Legionnaires or Tirailleurs?
Hi Peter: These numbers came from my personal notes from several yerars ago when I was preparing and collecting info for my website. I don't know right now from which book, but I think you can find these numbers in the "5° Etranger Historique de Régiment du Tonkin", Tome 1: Indochine 1883-1946, Commandement de la Légion Etrangère, Lavauzelle, Panazol, 2000 or La Légion Etrangère en Indochine 1914-1941, Tibor Szecsko, Edi-Cats, Aix-en-Provence, 1989.

As far your second question is concerned the Indochinese were mostly Tirailleurs attached to the 5e REI. But by becoming a part of 5e REI we can call them Legionnaires, can't we? :)

[Peter Lyderik]

Hannibal,

Of cause we can call them legionnaires. :)

But your info is new to me, and shows again that there is a lot more to learn about Legion history.

If you have La Légion Etrangère en Indochine 1914-1941 by Tibor Szecsko, could you please check the book for info about these two Danish officers, Dederding, Erik Henry and Bjerring, Osvald Kristian Peter. They had been in the French army since WW 1, and by the beginning of WW 2 were both in 5 REI.

What is your website about, and what is the URL?

[hannibal]

If you have La Légion Etrangère en Indochine 1914-1941 by Tibor Szecsko, could you please check the book for info about these two Danish officers, Dederding, Erik Henry and Bjerring, Osvald Kristian Peter. They had been in the French army since WW 1, and by the beginning of WW 2 were both in 5 REI.I am afraid I don't have this book. Too hard to find and if I am lucky to find it the price is often just horrible. I only took most interesting and for me important notes from it. The "La Légion Etrangère en Indochine 1914-1941" indeed lists the names of all the officers of the 5e REI, but honestly said I don't recall there would be a short biography for each of them. Nevertheless I have a friend who has this book and can ask him to check this up, but this may take a while. Holidays and stuff like that, you know. :) All what I can tell you for now is that based on a sample of 226 officers of the 5e REI for the period 1914-1941 the proportion of nationalities was as following: France 197, Germany 1, Belgium 2, Denmark 2, Finland 1, Hungaria 1, Italy 1, Montenegro 1, Poland 1, Romania 1, Russia 13, Turkey 2, Czechoslovakia 1, USA 1 and Switzerland 1. Most of these officers served in Indochina in 1920s and 1930s.

If the three men you are looking for were already serving in the FFL during World War 2 then I suggest you try to obtain the following book:

Jan René Westh: Danske frivillige i Frankrig 1914-1918/Volontaires danois en France 1914 – 1918, (1998).

I did not read it yet, but I have been told there are also some parts about the FFL.

[Peter Lyderik]

I have Danske frivillige i Frankrig 1914-1918/Volontaires danois en France 1914 – 1918. It is because of that book I know about the two Danish officers service in the Legion and 5 REI. The book has a lot about the Legion, because most Danes service in France during WW 1 was in the Legion. By the way, the book is mainly in Danish, with a short summary in French at the end of the book.

[hannibal]

I have Danske frivillige i Frankrig 1914-1918/Volontaires danois en France 1914 – 1918. It is because of that book I know about the two Danish officers service in the Legion and 5 REI. The book has a lot about the Legion, because most Danes service in France during WW 1 was in the Legion. By the way, the book is mainly in Danish, with a short summary in French at the end of the book.
Aha, I see. ;) I knew that a lot of Danes joined the FFl during World War I. I also think that many of them served as ambulance drivers for the Red Cross. I also have, for quite a few years now, a keen interest for those Danes from Northern Schleswig-Holstein who served in the Imperial German Army 1914-1918, mostly with the 85th Infantry Regiment from Hadersleben (Haderslev), which saw a lot of action on the Western Front. I will contact my friend and asked him to check this book for these officers.

Speaking of Danes in the FFL you surely know also the following book written by a Danish legionnaire after the ill-fated Narvik Campaign 1940:

Svend R. Christensen: "Sahara - Narvik - Brest: Erindringer fra Fremmedlegionen, Westermann, 1942

[Peter Lyderik]

I have a first edition, second printing from 1942. The writer later had problems in Denmark, because he ended up in prison. Later wrote some short stories, fiction, about the legion, which were really, really bad.

[hannibal]

I have a first edition, second printing from 1942. The writer later had problems in Denmark, because he ended up in prison. Later wrote some short stories, fiction, about the legion, which were really, really bad.
This is very interesting, Peter. I never had the privilege to read his book but a few excerpts from it. What kind of troubles did he have in Denmark? With the Germans? Or local Danish authorities? While browsing a couple of months ago through some of your Danish bookshops I noticed a release of a new book, a memoir of a Danish legionnaire from the Indochina War.

I am not interested in sci-fiction.

[Peter Lyderik]

He was in conflict with the law in Denmark, because he was a criminal. He was in prison 6-7 years, and it had nothing to do with his time in the Legion.

The book you mention might be this one.

http://www.warrior-books.com/mememedia/bagfjendenslinier.jpg

[hannibal]

He was in conflict with the law in Denmark, because he was a criminal. He was in prison 6-7 years, and it had nothing to do with his time in the Legion.Thank you for this information. I have to lay one day my hands on his book and read it, that's for sure. I have heard from first hand that Danish legionnaires in 1930s were quite "rough persons", he-he... :D

The book you mention might be this one.Yep, that's the one. Thanks for reminding me of it again. I have forgotten all about the title of the book and its author.

[hannibal]

Hi Peter! Some more updates and clarifications on my behalf about the 5e REI in Indochine in 1940:

The 5th REI (Régiment Etranger d’Infanterie) is a Foreign Legion unit. It peacetime it numbered about 2,000 men, most of them were coming from Germany, Austria and Central Europe. Theoretically it was purely a "white" unit, but during mobilization in 1939/40 some 1,500 Indochinese Tirailleurs have been added. Each of its three battalions is divided into three combat companies of 160 men and one command and support company equipped with machineguns, 81-mm mortars and 25-mm antitank guns.

Eventually most of the captured German and Austrian Legionnaires from Lang Son with their commander Cdt. Marcellin, who refused to leave without them, were released and rejoined their parent regiment at Dap Cau on 13.X.1940. Only two German legionnaires-deserters have stayed with the Japanese in China.